An Oldy but a Goody
I have been involved in some important teaching discussions about grace lately.
Frankly, I am sick of the bait-and-switch sales tactics I have seen in many Christian circles all my life. "God's grace has left nothing for you to do!" followed, after the fact, by, "Just remember that if you do not live as if Christ is your lord you are not a believer."
Yet there are so many places even in NT scripture that seem to insist upon our doing something in order to be truly a part of Christ's kingdom.
How can we both enter into God's eternal rest and work out our salvation?
Here are some interesting views on the topic:
"Free Grace"
"Apparently Not-so-free Grace"
(PS. Does the idea that no Christian will ever fall into mortal sin - and that, if they do, they were never a Christian - destroy the completeness of God's grace?)
posted by Lian at 10:58 am
10 Comments:
tres cee,
I think I am following your discussion of mortal sin (although I'm not exactly sure I agree with you). Could you explain further what the New Testament says about murder and what the ramifications are? As far as man inventing sins, I don't think that secular governments (i.e. the U.S. government and, for practical purposes, European governments) legislate and delineate sin. I think that sin has cultural ramifications, but it is also rooted in the character of God and thus also has universal aspects.
Chuck, I think Bonhoeffer's theology addresses the tension between grace and works very well (read the Cost of Discipleship). Both "faithful obedience" and "obedient faithfulness" must be active in the life of the disciple in salvation. Of course, we humans have always tended to migrate to one extreme or the other.
2:19 pm
Thanks Pedro, I'll try and look into that.
Tres Cee, I'm not sure I totally follow you. Are you suggesting that grace only extends to mortal sinners (are you calling abortionists mortal sinners?) until their death at which time they pay for their own sin? Or are you saying that natural death, as the inevitable consequence of sin, is continuously satisfying sin's lust for our lives?
I often wonder if natural death, as Tolkien likes to imply, was not actually given to man as a kind of grace - we were prevented from eating from the tree of life and wallowing in our misery without rest. Whatever the case, I think the idea of death and the distinction between natural and spiritual death is very important to this issue.
(chad)
9:01 am
I have always believed that salvation is conditional upon repentance.
Why is baptism in the new testament always talked of in relation to salvation? Because dieing to oneself to follow christ is the condition.
There was no sinners prayer, baptism was the visual that was used to articulate the decision.
Not that baptism saves but it articulates the decision process.
So the idea that baptism is an outward showing of inward faith is wrong in as much as it gives the idea that i do it for others.
Instead i do it to God which is why one needs no audience.
Does repenting and all those other related words mean i earn my salvation? No. So it is still grace.
Note how christians often say God have us free will as he did not want to make robots. Yet they think in heaven we simply won't be able to sin.
Sin is a choice and struggling with it and being committed to it are different things.
I think that is scripture you see two types of justice, and both are valid.
Retributive justice simply provides the punishment for the crime.
Public justice takes into account wether forgiveness is in the interest of the public. Therefor an adulterous woman is forgiven but told to sin no more.
Given that we are going to another world that is already inhabited by moral beings our forgiveness must take their interest into account.
So the death of Christ satified legal requirements. It offers a pardon upon condition. Those conditions as said do not earn us the pardon, therefor it is still grace, we don;t deserve it.
The whole say christ name and your in mentality is more like witchcraft in that it reduces christ name to a magic spell.
11:46 am
Sin exist external to God. As does the law.
Murdering another human is as much sin wether God exist or not.
The idea that sin is godlessness is not due to his existence but his omniscience and our being finite. That is dependance upon him is a necessity for the good of the universe and all moral beings.
He did not make law up though, rather it existed always in his all knowing.
Sorry for the two post in a row.
11:53 am
Philip, some of what you're saying is really interesting. I have to adamantly disagree with you on that second post, though. To say that sin and law exist independent of God is to say that there is something greater than God - that he, himself is not the measure of reality. Really you're implying that God is a created being (any being that is not pre-existent must be in some way created or dependent).
Your points about the choice of sin and repentance are interesting. In what way is repentance not an earning of salvation? My suspicion has always been that our sin and then the law followed by his outpouring of grace is all working towards a potent demonstration to us of our need for complete dependence.
10:40 am
grace if its unconditional then we cant do anything but thats where the relationship comes in doesnt it.
christians love God and want to serve Him and hang with Him but my OPINION is that grace can be abused and if it wasnt able to be then it couldnt be grace.
corey
11:12 pm
Chad,
Sorry for calling you Chuck (it's not the first time I've done that).
The sub-theme on the relationship of sin and death is very interesting. On reflection, I would say that physical death may vey well be inherent in this order, but without sin, I don't think it could truly be called death, for death is bitter and involves separation. Madeleine L'Engle seems, in her writings, to picture a death under grace as maturing into a more profound, eternal state. Without sin, I don't think there would be spiritual death. The distinction between physical and spiritual death is very important.
What is remarkable is that death really is central to the gospel. Christ died so that we could live, and we are called to be crucified daily, dying to self and living for Christ and in Christ. It's best stated as Aslan stated it in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe: that under the magic of the stone table (which is satisfied only by the blood of a traitor) lies a deeper magic - that the traitors act can be undon through the shed blood of the innocent.
5:00 am
Law is external to God in the same way that the maintenance book for your car is external to the company that made the car.
That is the car was made and the book was written based upon the needs of the car, not upon the arbitrary wishes of the designer.
As such the rules are external.
The law as it applies to mankind is also not based upon God's arbitrary will but upon what is necessary for humans to exist, taking into account all the elements of their design.
In that sense law is external to God.
That God subjects Himself to the law is i believe the basis of the idea that right is might as opposed to might being right.
My two cents
7:27 pm
Phil,
Some really indepth thoughts on law. I don't agree with the "law being external to God" though. I understand that you seem to want to get at the fact that laws derive from principles and the priniciples that the world exists in accordance with flow from the person of God. With that though, a law is still a derivative of a principle, which doesn't make it external, just in subjection to the principle and thus "open for discussion" once the circumstances change. Adam and Eve's law was "walking with God in the cool of the day" - knowing Him personally and interacting but their decision to sin is what created the need for law to exist although those laws have changed periodically. I believe (in regards to Pete's comment) that a redeemed and glorified Adam or Eve displays God in more of His fullness than does an ideal-state/Garden Adam or Eve. Grace existed before the Fall but not in kinetics or in motion just in principle (being careful here). God's "action" of Grace was a response to man's decision to fail God. It would seem then that God needed a reason to "launch" grace and it was man's inability to obey that brought it about. Was this His intention? Laws being derivatives of principle need to be internally located in God's system and not external because they involve man's response to God's response to man's fall. They are part of the whole and whole cannot exist without them.
7:14 am
Yet if God ceased to exist murder is still a sin. Still i ought to love my neighbour as myself etc.
That God revealed the law to us does not mean He made it up. It always existed in his reason based upon certain things being equal (as you have touched on, Nathan).
I don't believe man had or has an inability to obey God. If that were the case i am not a sinner but a victim of circumstaces beyond my control.
I am accountable only to the degree that i can obey but won't.
Regards
1:31 pm
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