I have several friends who are making a very conscious and decided move to abandon - not their Christian faith - but the church as we know it, in favor of ad hoc Christian gatherings and fellowship.
Apparently the "movement" is very widespread.
If you're interested in hearing more about it, check out The God Journey.com (I'm not endorsing the site, only mentioning it).
The church has become, I think, far too wrapped up in a kind of "show" mentality where it is possible to "go to church" and to "not like the worship at my church" or even to "do church 24/7".
It's maddening to realize how far we have come from seeing ourselves as Christ's body - and the Church, which we are inherently a part of, as his constant temple - to see how little we care about engaging each other in potent ways and how wrapped up we are in our own "relationship with God" - too much so to serve each other as priests, anyway.
Because of all this, I understand why it is that so many people are moving out of the traditional church structure and seeking something more spontaneous and connective.
But aren't they, ultimately, feeding into exactly the thing that is decaying the traditional church? Isn't it really just more of the same inwardness and self-seeking that believes its own connection with God is more important than - and can be achieved without - a connection with God's body on every level? Isn't this a way of ignoring a whole section of God's historical and spiritual community? If anything, it is those that are most different from us - in this case, those that cling so doggedly to the "old ways" of the church - that we need most if we are to be ushered constantly into God's presence.
This movement is attractive because it emphasizes the priest-hood of the believer and the idea that "hanging out" with other believers is more productive than "being in the audience" at "church". I'm beginning to wonder, though, if the priesthood of the believer doesn't really imply that we are all each other's priests rather than that I am my own priest. I'm beginning to wonder if boycotting the traditional church is really a way to experience God through his body.
posted by Lian at 10:43 am
63 Comments:
I love the idea of unstructured and free worship and fellowship, but also, knowing myself well enough, I know that there is no way that I pursue the imput of older and younger people on my own. I appreciate that "church" forces it upon me week after week and am frequently changed, not by the structure of the church service, but by the people there. I believe it is that imput in each others lives that is the reason that we need each other and why the Bible tells us to not give up meeting together.
erika
4:39 pm
if history has taught us anything it's that nothing truly changes. different skins, same animal. that's not to say that rebirth and reinvention is not absolutly vital, because it is. but i think it would foolish to believe this is the mark of greatness or there's something inherently spiritual about the style. it's important for each generation to find their voice without the pretenions of maximizing that or the acquiesce of minimizing that with respect.
certainly this is something we're just beginning to wrestle with. i'm a bit frightened at the possible implications that come with attempting to find god in a relevant way without concentraiting all of our thought on 'how' it is being done, instead of 'why' and 'who' it is being done for.
7:13 am
http://www.9marks.org/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID314526|CHID664734|CIID1765958,00.html
chad, please paste this onto your address bar, this is our pastor, speaking of this same thing..you would appreciate what his views are on the same subject take a look. claire
12:41 pm
again in total...
http://www.9marks.org/CC_Content
_Page/0,,PTID314526|CHID664734|
CIID,00.html
12:45 pm
I'll check that out Claire.
Chuck, your comment is really spot on I think.
We always get so wrapped up in trying to change the structure of everything that we have no time or energy left to change ourselves. We get so caught up worrying about what "The Church" is doing or "In which direction the church is tending" that we cannot even see the Church - the person next to us.
7:07 pm
great thoughts guys.
I'm never a proponent of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
11:44 am
i struggle (perhaps because of my own sloth) with the arduous task of reforming from within. it is so much easier to "start a new church" where we worship a god that we have created somehow to our own likings or preferrences (rarely with any major theological differences- mostly just cosmetic changes and botox here and there). i buddy of mine just graduated with his MDiv from Mars Hill and is doing a church plant under the Baptist umbrella. i was surprised to see such an "outside the box" thinker go back to his denomination of origin to attempt reform from within. this is by far a more difficult and more nobel task- one fraut with frustration and bumping up against brick walls- one i'm not sure i'm ready to consider at this point.
what does it mean to "live into one's tradition" while at the same time attempting to bring new life to it?
5:10 am
Phil, that is spot on. Love is always the hard road and we are so quick to substitute it for something easier and more instant
11:46 am
in many respects a very valid point is being missed here...namely THE BODY, good or bad you are IT. incorporated, intrinsic, inseparatable. what does that mean? well, it means that choices about being in or out are a moot point. amputation is death to the member and pain and suffering to the body. without the necessary appendage, other parts are forced to double up and do alot of multi-tasking. this puts undo stress on the entire body. in my youth many of us struggled with the very same frustrations you are all voicing today, no difference. we ended up in weird situations with alot of disenfrancised christians all trying to find a new way of worship, in basements and houses we sat all with the same thought, there must be a better way. but separation from the THE BODY, THE CHURCH was not the answer. what the body needs is a transfusion, tired, old and waiting for redemption, we the traditional, need you, the vital,you, the fresh, you the young. you,dissatisfied with the way the body looks, acts and conducts itself in the world. change IT, renew IT, INFUSE IT. but for the sake of the body, please dont leave it. in doing that you doom it. for the body cannot continue without the vitality of its youngest parts. just as god created our bodies to renew and heal itself, so the church, the body must do the same, created like our own bodies, it must renew, heal, change and grow but cannot do that without renewable parts.consider yourselves the stem-cells of the church. young and strong, ready for any change and growth. consider your place and pour yourself out as a drink offering as paul says, to be used, not for your own adgenda, but for the continuation of the body that god has placed here to show the world who he is. we, the worn, await regeneration from within, from you the young. you are our only hope young ones.
3:44 am
ok anonymous commenter. i don't think you're truly hearing what we're saying. nobody on this forum is talking about leaving the body. no place have we said anything near that. but, if your definition of 'the body' means the traditions of evangelical white america than, yes we see alot of cancerous things there. and if this is your definition (which it may or may not be) than i belive it's time for you to reevaluate your definitions. the comment from phil above yours speaks of the nobility of a man who has chosen to re-enter a tired old body in hopes to revitalize it and even destroy it, only to have it remade again. you speak as if we are spending our words of change out of angst like some band of foolish teenagers out smashing pumpkins. please go back and read and listen to our words.
your push seems to have us in roles to simplely replace you in the body without anything from us come alive. where are our voices in the body? where has the voice of the individual been inside the church in recent years? do you percieve the sound of our searching voices to be self serving and destructive? voices only to speak in vainity without thought of edifying the whole? do i now become amputated because i've decided to have a voice within the body? am i not allowed to be lead by the spirit to question and direct just as the prophets did? were the prophets severed feet? i think not.
from your words of reproach i only hear desperation, as if we are all on the verge of leaving the very thing we are seeking to create.
so sorry i don't think we're missing the valid point of the body at all. it's exactly what we're talking about. as far as i know everyone of us 'youngsters' have read and taken great value from the words of dietrich bonhoeffer's 'life together'.
i appreciate your bold call for us see the body, but fear not! the body is something we have never taken out of our sight.
2:16 pm
great discussion guys. having spent the last 4.5 years working within the very church we have this ambivalence towards, i can see both sides of the fence here. on the one hand, i see why people have come up empty handed while encountering today's church and have chosen to walk away from it. on the other hand, i can see a desire from within the church to really reach out to people and connect with them, but being completely ineffective and missing the point on how this should be accomplished. the former are walking away from church (but not God) because (in my opinion) there is a lack of depth in relationships. i'm not a sensationalist by any means, and i believe also in the importance of preaching, worship, etc, etc, etc.... however, many people in our demographic are looking for an authentic community to be in relationship with, rather than a church to go to. correct me if i'm wrong, here, because i understand that i'm speaking for the masses and you and i are a part of... agree? disagree?
however, with this in mind, many of us are attending churches, while desirous of reaching out and ministering to its people, that are in many respects operating as a business. the "bigger is better" megachurch model is empty and causes people to become "data" or "products" of one's ministry. we're looking for converts rather than relationships. to create converts we in turn create programs. if you don't have enough divorced converts, create a program in your church for the divorced. if you don't have enough youth data, you hire a youth pastor. and we have become in many senses passionate about a superficial growth that leaves many people in our generation jaded and frustrated.
now, i understand that i have painted a picture of extremes here, but from the inside of church i see a plethora of good intentions veering far from the course of the original church, which is to live and love in community, in relationship, and TOGETHER carry on the ministry of Christ that has been passed on to us (which, i think would reiterate chad's point of the priesthood of believers to serve others, not me.)
so if this is the way church is meant to be, it is antithetical to leave a church community and independently "be your own church". Rather could church not be found in a community of relationships of those who meet together for the purpose of knowing God more, even if that's at someone's house every couple of weeks? could this happen over a beer after watching the simpsons? or would this be simply swinging the pendulum too far the other way and prove to be nothing more than reactionary?
here's a great article illustrating how people have become nothing more than data in today's megachurch...
http://www.baselinemag.com/article2/0,1540,1896787,00.asp
2:44 am
sorry, here's that link again in its entirety...
http://www.baselinemag.com/
article2/
0,1540,1896787,00.asp
2:46 am
I got this site connection from Phil and have read most of the comments so I hope that I don't repeat somebody else's musings. I wanted to include a viewpoint from a Native American Church/contextualization leader here (or there) in the US. He wanted to draw all of the Native people in Chicago into a community gathering that would meet regularly and share meals, laughter, experiences, cultural expressions, etc... From this community (which is not just Christians) different focus groups could derive and give themselves to a task, whether that was spiritual, recreational, relief oriented, birthday parties, etc... But the character of the community would be built around the community itself and the integrity of that community would be guarded by certain individuals who were willing to take the task (elders, leadership) One guy sitting in the discussion group listening to this leader talk became very concerned that the group be very orthodox "because there are a lot of people preaching different gospels out there" The leader said, "The longer I walk with the LORD, the less I am scared by different 'ideas'" The integrity of the community then wouldn't be based on orthodox positions but strictly on the nature of what community in that context should be. Truth will prevail and there would have to be intentional placement of spiritual leadership.
The difference is that we create spritual atmospheres to create the connections that give us the opportunity for fellowship after the spiritual stuff is done. He is seeking to reverse the direction of that by allowing the community to be central and then to have an expectation that prayer, Bible study, discipleship, missions direction, evangelism, etc... will grow out of the character and personality of the community. Those that come will not be expected to make the giant leap from nothing to sitting in a pew, their developmental stage in seeking Truth can be legitimized and honored through providing community first (which is spiritual) and then more direct spiritual interactiveness as a secondary "choice" deriving from the community.
An easy example is a veterans club or the Lions, etc... I like it, but it requires a lot of change. It might be the kind of change that doesn't throw out the baby but turns the piano one inch at a time without anyone noticing it is at a different angle.
What do you think. Community central - direct spiritual interaction (Church) secondary (this doesn't mean that it is less important but that it is a movement, honoring the process, helping to guauge the Truth seeker) I believe this is what Willow Creek has done but they have mashed it all together more or less.
6:13 am
Nathan, thanks for posting - i'm struggling to grasp your conclusions, though, could you clarify?
Aaron: Yeah I think that "church" can definitely take place anytime anywhere - which is really the catch-cry of this "emergent" movement I was mentioning - however, I think the issue is, if you want that anytime, anywhere setup to BE your "church" than you are essentially turning your friends into your church instead of the other way around and that is a problem. I think the church isn't in need of a new idea for how things should be done (ie. "Let's stop having Sunday morning services and start meeting around the Simpsons or whatever") but rather for a better sense of love in which people intrude on each other's lives and become spiritually enmeshed so that transformation takes place. This means loving those you wouldn't really like to be your friends in particular.
5:44 pm
chad, thanks for responding. i agree with your thoughts, and i brought up the "church can be anywhere" point only for a matter of perspective. to play the devil's advocate and walk further down this path i just want to throw out a couple of thoughts that have been going through my mind lately...
in our culture we have, in essence, created a dichotomy in our definition of "church". the original intention of "church" is to be the "body of Christ"-- the people. yet, when we are speaking of the church today, we are speaking of the institution or organization that we attend on sundays. sure, that's not the original definition of the church, but it is church as we know it in our culture and we have borrowed the word from its original intention. however, given this dichotomy, i'm curious about a few things (and i'll just think out loud here for a moment)...
if the body of Christ is the church, and the purpose (as i think we have agreed throughout this discussion) of it is to love and build one another up, to coexist together in love, to serve one another, and to ultimately journey together toward God on a deep, intimate level-- at what point does our 2nd definition of the church become necessary? and at what point did the church become an institution? (that's not a rhetorical question, i'm curious if anyone knows, cuz i'm not sure).... because in my understanding of the beginning of the church in Acts, it was basically people in relationship meeting together in a casual setting (especially when contrasted with their previous corporate gatherings at the Temple...) i wonder if we have made church more that it should be? and by "more" i mean, more fuss, more structure, more "staffed", and more of a business. it would appear in my understanding of the early church versus today that we have swung to the polar opposite in that we have made the institution paramount and in our attendance there seek to develop a deep relationship with those around us, rather than seeking the relationships and going to the institution with those whom we are in relationship with.
perhaps i'm not articulating well because i'm writing as i process this. and maybe the end result would really look the same if we were to shift our mindset to what i have stated above.
i guess my bottom line is this: when did the church become an organization and is that necessary? did God intend for there to be such a place that has tax-exempt status, paid staff, and a gymnasium? or did he just intend for people to live life together with church as we know it simply being a by-product of this?
now, what this would actually look like in a practical sense, i'm not exactly sure. it may look identical to church today... or nothing like it at all. and how would we achieve this paradigm shift? thoughts?
nevertheless, i agree that throwing the baby out with the bath water is never a profitable reaction, but a fruitful dialogue can certainly be effective!
1:40 am
lian, I think that I didn't have a conclusion as much as I was trying to share what one guy suggested. I struggle with nailing down what I mean and what I would do. I am preparing for pastoral ministry of some kind and will have to decide sooner or later. I guess it was more of an observation that the way that Church is structured is focused around the Church practices, worship (singing, offering, drama, Scripture reading, etc...) preaching and education. The community then bases thier interaction with other Christians based on what Church they attend because it is only after the interaction with God's Word and worship that people begin to fellowship. I guess the question to myself and to others is then what is community - how do you define it? Can it be standing next to somebody and praying, singing and then sitting down to write notes from a good sermon and then going to Chile's after the service to share lunch with that same person as well as a game of frisbee golf. We are supposed to keep meeting together like you said but if our lives are shaped in community and we have one way of communing with Church people and another way of communing with non-believers, which one is community? These are the questions I'm struggling with right now. Sometimes I've felt more shaped by the company that I keep on Friday nights than the company I share on Sunday. My guard is down and I am enjoying myself, etc... Too many questions!
4:23 am
I like what Aaron had to say above my last comment. When people meeting together for a sustained amount of time with a common purpose grow in number they have to organize for accountability and stewardship. The problems start when your growth grows beyond your ability to organize and be accountable. Maybe intentional small Churches splitting off once a certain size has been reached is a mandate much like what God did at the Tower of Babel. Maybe the problems caused by intsitutionalism are there as a warning to keep us from conglomerating and to keep us moving out and growing into different locations for the spread of the Gospel, without persecution to cause this or a confusing of language, maybe the problems that arise from having too many people in a fellowship are there to point us to smaller numbers, more Churches, more locations - sounds good...
4:33 am
chad, a very thoughtful post young man! i had several friends turn to orthodoxy recently for similar reasons. phil knows about how our discussion turned disastrous on a blog that has now been shut down as a result, so unfortunately I can't reference the link. I did just want to say thanks for the good content in all of your comments. It has helped me think things through some more. It seems like a never ending debate, even if it is just taking place in my own mind and heart.
1:50 am
We need to look at the state of the evangelical church from a broader perspective, one that is both historical and global.
Church is in its essence the body of Christ, but has, historically also become institutional in the West. the institutionalization of the church may or not be its ideal social construct, but the institutional church is what we have.
The contemporary western (evangelical?) church may be somewhat disconnected from broader cultural attitudes and outlooks, but the church has perpetually been engaged in a struggle with culture since its advent. This struggle has resulted in the creation of post-Roman christendom, the Protestant Reformation, the fundamentalist-modernist controversy in the early 20th century, among other historical movements (Moodies - remember Christianity and Western Culture?).
Unfortunately, Christian Missions has been, until fairly recently, a movement which has aided Western powers in the colonial subjugation of much of the rest of the world and has been a vehicle of Western cultural assertiveness.
In spite of its occasional failings, the Christian missions movement has, indeed, been used by God to make disciples of all people. The result is that non-western churches are alive and well and are beginning to assert their own non-western Christian worldviews, theological perspectives, and ecclesiastical structures. It is important in this conversation to remember that the attitudes and feelings we have toward our church may not be shared by the majority of Christians.
Because the church (both local and global) is composed of humans whom God is perpetually refining, it will never be a perfect temple for Christ on earth. This is why all of creation groans in eager expectation for the children of God to be remade in perfection. The nature of the Kingdom of God on earth is that what is being made perfect on earth has already been made perfect in heaven. Thus we have hope that, in spite of uor failings, God will continue to perfect his church and, as its head, work redemption of the world through it. The tension we feel within an imperfect church is really no different than the tension that we experience as humans who are simultaneously sinners and saints, people who do not do what they want to do because they continue to be sinners, even though God has worked and is working redemption in them.
It may be that we are not necessarily called to reform the church but to live within the church and to love. Just as we need not "convert" people to our faith, we need not "convert" people to our way of worship and our way of life. Our task (both within the church and within our relationship with other human beings - within any relational sphere for that matter) is to live in love, and, in so doing, to draw others closer to Christ. This is the work of the Spirit in and through our lives.
This is really echoing what others have already said, but I hope it connects some of the dots.
6:33 am
firelance, i'd love to talk to you more about that whole thing. i still have a lot of entrials on the ground.
and if the rest of you have any thoughts, i made this comment elsewhere: "how do we begin to see the issue of church membership and agreeing with the doctrinal statment in order to be incorporated into the community? is this an avoidance of disruption at all costs? that if we all agree we won't have to wrestle and struggle with different perspectives in the midst of us? or is it good to be of 'one mind'? where is there room for the 'other' in the community of faith?"
and some say that if we agree on the major doctrines- then we can all get along. the problem is, we can't even come to a common understanding on what the Gospel or the Kingdom of God is. i recently was reading in rob bell's "velvet elvis" that an older pastor told him once that as long as he teaches the bible, he won't have any problems with him. what the hell?!! as if there is one way to teach the bible... you catch my drift.
any thoughts?
1:49 am
Phil,
I think we have had this discussion elsewhere about the difficulty of loving both individuals and large groups simultaneously. I think that similar points can be made about living in community with the body of Christ.
It is impossible that in a sinful and finite world that all believers will be able to live in perfect agreement. I think that just as the local body must accept a diversity of gifts as being its strength (one member, many parts), so must a global body accept that its diverse constituent parts (i.e., local bodies of believers) are its strength globally.
It seems to me that people are apt to associate most closely with those who are like them. This is what can make institutional and cultural ties so strong. How can we appreciate that people do have concrete beliefs but learn to agree to disagree? Obviously this is how we approach dialogue with friends from other religious backgrounds. We might not be in a religious fellowship with Muslims, Buddhists, or Hindus, but we need not be afraid to live with them, love them, and dialogue with them. What might we learn from mutually exclusive schools of thought.
What I am saying is that I would take your call for local inclusiveness and make it a call for inter-corporate understanding.
Every religious tradition had a gammut of worldviews (from fundamentalist to postmodern - compare Christianity and Islam for example), and we are not the only ones to struggle with unity amid diversity.
11:57 am
Hey People!
I've recently just passed through that phase where not "going" to church was the answer to all my problems. Here on the other side of that phase, where alot of the bitterness and anger has been extracted from my heart, I have little to say about terms like "going" or "attending" or "being involved in". It's just not the point anymore.
The struggle I still have is that my experience of God and my interaction with Jesus are the most real to me in practically every structure of my life outside of two hours on Sunday morning. I'm reminded of Jesus' words to the woman at the well when He said that the time was coming that men would not worship God on this mountain or that mountain (in this place or that place), but in spirit and in truth. I don't really know what He meant when He said in "spirit and in truth", but it sounds like something that is all encompassing and ongoing, something that is felt deep and real.
Chad, it is good when you remind us that we are all priests to each other. In light of the words of Christ to the woman at the well, this really makes sense, because He was talking about bringing worship before God, one the main activities of a priest.
These days I am more concerned about bring worship to Him that is in spirit and in truth and less concerned about which mountain I worship on.
That's it for now.
12:44 pm
John 4:22-24ish
"It's who you are and the way you live that count before God. Your worship must engage your spirit in the pursuit of truth. That's the kind of people the Father is out looking for: those who are simply and honestly themselves before him in their worship. God is sheer being itself - Spirit. Those who worship him must do it out of their being, their spirits, their true selves, in adoration."
12:19 am
Cliff, I agree with your summation, the mountain doesn't matter. I remember reading an article that came out of New Zealand or Australia that was chronicling different Christians whose faith was still vibrant and growing but they had long left an organized Church. They were in the same stage that many have found ourselves, a dutiful action rather than the anticipation of meeting with God's people for worship, etc...
I can't help but mention that there are Churches meeting in Iran privately right now, listening to radio messages to get fed. There is a pastor who has just been stabbed to death in Iran for hosting a house Church, just a group of people in his house loving Jesus together. I'm not trying to make us feel guilty for discussing this problem, but in a different context, where our lives are in danger, we would have different issues to think about, like how to stay alive, keep our job, not have our children taken from us, to provide for our children because thier dad has just been put in jail, all because we had a Church meeting where we met to worship Jesus.
I would like to put this out there, we aren't meeting to worship God, to be taught, to find fellowship, etc... we are there to organize, to come together for a purpose that involves living redemptively for the sake of the unreached. A missional lifestyle without missions is worthless except to have a good idea and to help yourself. The unreached of the world is the goal of every Church - Self actualization is bull tweety unless it serves to bring organization for the purpose of centering gifts, resources, growth, worship all one focus, to establish the Kingdom of Heaven where it does not yet exist. We are crying out for purpose in going to Church and it is right in what Jesus said, the spread of the Kingdom of Heaven by making disciples in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH. Alll concentric circles, if this is your focus, meeting together is just a given, it is assumed - two, three, four, etc... will always be better than one.
12:34 am
Claire (MCM), I have to differ with you there. I think the idea of "Church" as a sort of hospital or place to get fed is what has led to so much of the narcissism I see in the Western Church.
Everyone GOES there ("going to church" is really nonsensical, I think) to get something - a great "worship experience", some "solid teaching" or "weekly encouragement". Church, as we know it, has ceased to be the unified body of God made up of individuals perpetually growing in love and oneness and has come to be, as you say, a sort of product - a place to GET. I don't think it is a place at all but an organism that we MUST act as a cell of, affecting and being perpetually affected by all the other cells without which we are dead. We cannot merely "attend church" anymore.
11:05 pm
Hi, i'm not smart and i don't use big words so i'm not going to write much but i am very interested in what has been said.
darren, you sound like you're part of a 'movement' i know about called defensivism or perhaps just plain annoyance :)
I understand if they were talking about you why you would be defensive because i know you to be a person with his own mind who doesn't get into other people's 'movements' -you make choices based on what you believe.
I'm only saddened that you never experienced God on a Sunday morning. Why is that? and Cliff too - if you can experience God everywhere else what makes it so hard on a Sunday morning? I understand what you said about it doesn't matter which mountain you worship on but why can't it be every mountain?
Does our own irritation and annoyance with the service get in the way of seeing the God that is worthy of our worship no matter where we are or how we feel?
I don't understand - someone please help me.
Thanks everyone
4:58 pm
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
5:57 pm
iv thaught about this alot and my first instinct is to, i duno get angry or something but thats dum.
i have this thing that i think every now and then when iv got some decision to make. this is it
"i can convince myself of anything"
but what is God telling me?
this is what i think he is telling me about this.
get more involved spiritually, metaly, helpfully, convisationally, lovingly and heaps more-lly with the people that happen to be around me.
get more involved with loving and serving people who dont know God.
get more involved with God.
i dont realy like the part of sunday that is kinda suposed to be like a concert cause its not. go and see a real concert if you dont know what i mean, but if you are living in the church the way God wants it then so what! i dont like going to work or being on this planet or following the speed limit or eating sometimes either!
but l love being connected to the church.
a question
is style important?
corey sleap
!anonymous is a gutless act!
6:57 pm
Man, this topic is clearly really on everyone's mind.
Daz - love to you bro. - I will not pike out and say that you were not one of the friends in my mind. I'm sorry if you feel mis-represented (we should really talk about it more). Anyway, although the God Journey may have nothing to do with the "Emerging Church" (you'll note my fondness in this post for inverted commas) they certainly see themselves as part of a movement. Not an organized one perhaps, but in their pod casts they were very fond of quoting the stats about the masses of Christians moving out of the traditional church structure.
The biggest issue I have with what you have said is "I am the Church". "I" can never have anything to do with the church. The church must always be "We". Church is a plural noun.
Also, I'd like to know exactly how Christ serves as your priest in a physical/practical (non-theoretical) way. The church is his body - the church is his presence on earth. You are a part of that presence but I think you (and I) also need the rest of Christ's physical presence - in all its diversity - in order to interact with him.
11:24 pm
Corex,
Great stuff. I resonated with all that you said. Since viewing this discussion I have thought a lot about how many times I have wanted to go to Church when I did go. Now thinking about it, I think 9 times out of 10 I didn't want to go. I just went. In the end it was important for me to be there but I only realized afterwards. I encountered something or someone that made me think differently, convicted me of sin, hurt me, made me laugh when I wasn't laughing or pissed me off.
I guess now reflecting on my life, what I need to do in any given day is a lot of "have-to's" and "shoulds" but I don't do them or do them half-heartedly. I get sick of it after awhile and then just do it and get it done right. I go back and forth every week of my life.
I guess what I'm realizing is that in one way, "why should Church be any different if it is made of human beings, filled with the Holy Spirit, who are struggling with similar stuff?" Then I ask myself, "Why shouldn't it be different if we are the Church?" Then I get more confused and play XBOX or email a friend or call another or take a nap, I love the feeling of falling asleep, except when I know that I have to get up to go to work.
I then go back and forth between feeling free to enjoy my sleepiness or to get up and do what I have to do or what I "should" do - like praying, D.A. Carson has said that that will never be easy...
12:37 am
Question,
Is the curse that Adam has to deal with,
"Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.
By the sweat of your brow your will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust your will return."
the curse that keeps us from wanting to go to Church?
12:44 am
there are over a dozen issues being tossed around here and i feel a bit scattered-
but djp72, you said "Jesus is my only priest... i am no-one's priest. and i want no one as my priest." - and chad responded to your comment asking how it is that jesus does that for you and noted that church is never achieved in issolation.
further i'd like to ask if it isn't the very notion of "my personal relationship with Jesus" that has attributed greatly to our current deviance from the hebraic understanding of spirituality- which, for the early church would have translated to "our communal relationship with Jesus."
and it is our habit of relating to Jesus as simply an abstraction that allows us to "leave the church" or say "no one is my priest"- because we have come to believe that the ascencion put an end to the incarnation. a recovered understanding of church must stem from a recovered understanding of the person of Jesus- continuing to be "in the flesh"- in other words- you, me, the other- always moving, as chad said above, to a "we"- because we are called to immitate the kenosis of christ- emptying the self of behalf of the other- towards unity.
and nathan, i believe that is what you are referring to when you suggest that this might be a lot of work- and that we will feel as though we toil in vain- but perhaps we don't- perhaps there is a trajectory to all of this- "thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth... as it is in heaven."
7:27 am
34 comments! people i think it's time to dedicate this post to an entire book and call it "wow this issue is tough! and other bedtime stories"
10:42 am
Is the real issue how we define the word church?
I know that most people on this forum would have the same definition but after talking to my wife (yay just got married) about this stuff we came up with this.
I think that most people in THE Church have no idea what the word Church means! Some of the stuff I learned from wak preachers in my younger Christian days leaves me thinking "what bible are they reading”…… anyway… that’s what I get angry about ( I'm not angry with people) that some churches let it slide when people say “I’m going to church” or “what church do you go to” or “what style is your church” clearly people are referring to the building or the organisation when they say these things. It seems innocent enough but It’s far from innocent in my opinion. Because by definition the Church isn’t that! It’s us and if people are thinking that it’s some kind of institution then that’s how they will treat it. For example when the pavements got a crack in it the residents of that area call the council to fix it. That’s not how the Church works and you all know it! The Church would get together and find the gifted people who know how to fix cement in that area and get together and fix it themselves.
This is a great discussion.
2:25 pm
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE CHURCH IN THIS STATEMENT I AM REFERING TO OUR MEETINGS AND THE STYLE OF THEM.
My personal problem (with myself) is that I hate the art and style of Sunday gatherings I love good preaching, I love the concert thing, I love music, I love my Church family, I love audio visual media, I love the integration of the arts into a meeting (its been happening for centuries) but there are only a handful of groups doing it above average.
What happened to the renaissance? I’m not an expert on it but the simple truth is that the art was as good as it can get and people now Christian and non still listen to the music from that time. They have whole college courses dedicated to it.
Controversy time! (My opinion only) fire all the bad musicians who are involved in our meetings and if you can’t find good ones, don’t have music.
2:31 pm
We organize - why? aNytimE something that is happening grows you have to organize...
It is inevitable. DJp72, I feel the same way about the music industry that you feel about the Church. Almost exact same issues. Are you "underground" hip-hop or mainstream or whatever else has got new headlines?
I just shared with a group of Portugeuse university students that the main reason I am a Church attender is to get things done that cannot get done in excellence if there is no organization behind those who carry the same vision.
It is true, we can hang out, sing, grow, have Bible studies, do evangelism, etc... without a Church building but I want to say that the reason we organize has to be to get things done. The reason we disciple is to bring individuals along in their maturity so that they can come more fully into thier God given role in getting things done. To get things done when you have a population of Christians like we do is absolutely necessary. It would be a sinful negligence of stewardship not to.
Solution (??!?) Find a group of people that have the same vision of getting things done - we all want to grow, to have genuine lives of worship, to understand and live the Bible more, to broken and have ongoing personal revival, but there isn't just one way to get things done. Find a group of Christians that want to get things done and don't be afraid of organizing to get those things done. Just don't let your organization become prevalent over your purpose of getting things done. Being organized should always serve the main goal and focus of the Church - to get things done.
Algeria is crying out for Mandarin speaking people to come and share the gospel to thousands of Chinese migrant workers who have been wanting a Bible for 20 years. Guess what - we don't have enough Bibles and we don't have enough money and we don't have enough people. What does this demand --
It demands money, people, Bibles!
How do we get that done - not by staying at home on Sunday morning and not by going to Church on Sunday morning.
It gets done by organizing = being committed to an integrabel coalition of all our resources, gifts and abilities in order to finish the task that Christ gave us when His feet last touched off from earth. This means growing spiritually, making loads of money, fellowship, worshipping in song, action and in sacrificial living, it means means being broken in our lives so that God can pave the highway of redemption in our hearts in order to teach us how to live redemptively in the world around us, including the entire globe - seeing everything as redeemable and organizing a way to get it done.
11:33 pm
Of course the fuel that feeds this process of getting things done is the favor and free unending love that we receive from our Savior through His death and resurrection and ongoing work of getting things done in our hearts. I would not just join this huge plan if I wasn't sure that God loved me. Many do join and get burned out because instead of being used by God they feel "used" by God ( more specifically - poor leadership). If our hearts have not received the revelation of God's complete love and favor for us in the midst of Him leading us on, then we are in danger of leaving the Church building because leaving takes the pressure off of us to do something about it and then we can get on with our own spiritual growth. Tension is necessary for growth and receiving love daily from God is necessary for being involved with His great plan without getting disillusioned or becoming a "burnt" offering. We need to receive love (which I think is a miracle) and organize to get things done.
11:41 pm
Nathan Barret said. "Being organized should always serve the main goal and focus of the Church - to get things done."
You can’t make that kind of statement man it’s only partly true. I agree that it is very, very important but I don’t think there is only one thing on Gods agenda for the Church.
I totally appreciate your passion though, if what you write about is what your doing then man ill put you on my prayer list (if I was organised enough to have one).
But think about this another thing you said was
“How do we get that done - not by staying at home on Sunday morning and not by going to Church on Sunday morning.”
Bu bow first you don’t go to church you know that. Second even non Christian organisations can organise missionaries. Not going to a meeting on Sunday morning has anything to do with it.
I think DJP actually I know he has a heart for that work and he doesn’t go to a concert on Sunday morning and I totally believe that he is involved in that work also.
I’m not saying don’t go to a meeting on Sunday or don’t be an active member (not just on paper member I totally hate that) of a group of Christians in your area I’m ALL FOR THAT, but lets start spreading the news.
Here is the news
Tonight on the “C” word news
Christians are leaving organised religion in droves some people say it is because they have lost connection in their relationships with others in the Church.
What will the church do about this situation?
Corey Sleap had this to say.
“Man we need to close the back door by connecting with people and loving them, keep preaching and worshiping but really loving people is the key. They say blood is thicker than water with families, lets make the water thicker.”
Ps. Gods main agenda is His own glorification.
Corey Sleap
11:52 am
Corey,
Good discussion here. I would like to clarify something. I believe that we are in agreement to some degree
I was being very specific when talking about "why do we organize?" The term "getting things done" is just a simple way to state a complex goal of God glorifying Himself.
God glorifies Himself through His Son, His Son has given us specific things to do - it is very clear in Scripture, and at the same time His Son has provided us with what we need to get those things done, being redeemed, receiving love, receiving spiritual gifts, receiving the written WORD, receiving the hope of eternal life, etc... We aren't given things like this for our own enjoyment - they are all for a purpose - and yes it is to glorify God - but what does glorifying God look like. If I don't speak Christianese, what does it mean to glorify God? What does glorify mean and how do I do it? We need to disciple people into that reality using first what they know about God and then allowing them discover and flourish on their own within community, discipleship, Biblical teaching, service, etc... but what is this all heading towards, what is the orientation that guides all of this stuff? This is my question? I look forward to your answer or anyone's answer, but please don't give me a theoretical answer or the answer of "glorifying God". I've got that down - but now I am a 27 year old guy who loves the Church and Jesus and I want my life to count for something - what do I do - what do I actually DO? Not spoon fed, but direction led action - what do I orient my life to and then how do I do that?
I look forward to dialogue
11:52 pm
Corey,
I forgot something, There is one thing on God's agenda - glorifying Himself. Underneath that agenda are many numerous agendas that will all accomplish the last agenda. In America we do well at a lot of these agendas, spiritual growth, intercession, basically all of the components of the LORD's prayer. Let it be here as it is in Heaven - which was elnellis's remark. The one agenda that tends to be more difficult in America more so than other places is not just getting things done, but it is the ability to take the three focuses that exist, action, heart and knowledge and to interface them for the purpose of why we exist as a Church. God's vision for Israel was always to make ready a people who would reach the world with His message - what did they do with that responsibility - they squandered and made themselves out as being more special than the rest of the world because God had set them apart, but as Brian McClaren (he's got some good stuff) has said, the term "holy" can be best understood as, "being set apart for a sacred purpose" not just being set apart or having good fellowship, or good discipleship, or proper ways of doing Church. I guess it would come down to this, if I was a part of a dysfunctional Church who had a vision to get things done in spite of their dysfunctional nature, I would join that fellowship quicker that a Church who is really on board with how a Church fellowship should be, but is not doing anything. Both need to grow but when you are doing - you have a much better chance for maturity to grow in other areas, than if you just sit and contemplate. This was the danger of the monk lifestyle and all the wonderful learning and closeness that monks got was wasted on themselves, because many of them kept all of that learning and insight in the desert away from the people who needed - the place where things needed to get done - because they became more concerned with beating sin, than with offering salvation. Self-acutalization will eventually cause implosion and that is what happened - Henri Nouwen has suggested then that we find our desert of discovery within the fray of our busy lives and meet with God in a desert place that stands in the midst of need not apart from it.
But please answer the question above this entry
12:06 am
it looks like "wow this issue is tough! and other bedtime stories" definitely has potiential- but it might have to be a three volume set.
1:51 am
Nathan,
It's awesome to read what you post on our frineds' blogs - I can see how much your experiences are transforming your outlook and practice. I look forward to the day in which we can meet again fact-to-face.
What strikes me most about this incessant conversation is that everyone agrees about some things and disagrees about others. Gee, this seems to happen a lot in life.
For me the moral of the story is that most styles and definitions of "chucrh" are appropriate in a specific time and place but not in others (there's a time and season for everything). For instance, the Christian Fundamentalist movement in the early 20th century in America was a reaction to and against contemporary events, but many good things came about because it (e.g., MBI). I can recognize the contextual appropriateness of this movement, even though I regularly scoff at contemproary fundamentalists and fundamentalist institutions like the ever-verbal Pat Roberts and the pharacitical Pensacola Christian College.
Another example of contextual appropriateness is Martim Luther's split from the Universal Church of his day. Maybe those who leave the "organized church" today are performing a valuable function in calling attention to the superficialities of the evangelical life, expecially during Sunday morning worship.
Perhaps all movements, non-movements, ideas, beliefs, and non-beliefs contain elements that are both true and elements that are un-true. Some elements may even miss the mark entirely. This fact is part and parcel of what it means to be both sinful and finite human beings. What remains remarkable is that, in spite of our diversity of opinion and practice, we all profess to walk with Christ. That, to me, is a phenomenal picture of the grace of God.
Regardless of our personal beliefs and experience, it behooves us to always maintain a sense of humility and to remember that both our belief and experience may benefit from revision in the future.
4:51 am
Hey Nathan you sound like you really care about not wasting time!! i love that!!!
Man I’m no expert but my answer to your question is this.
So the question is what do we do “the practise of glorifying God”
First I never meant to make it sound like Christianeese I kinda think very literally and I meant bring glory to God.
I wrote all the stuff below the line of x’s before this but I didn’t what to delete it because I still think it’s worth the read later. Cause it’s the long answer.
Corey’s answer (thanks for asking)
Dictionary answer for glory-
glo•ry Great honour, praise, or distinction accorded by common consent; renown.
1. Something conferring honor or renown.
2. A highly praiseworthy asset.
3. Adoration, praise, and thanksgiving offered in worship.
4. Majestic beauty and splendor; resplendence: The sun set in a blaze of glory.
5. The splendor and bliss of heaven; perfect happiness.
6. A height of achievement, enjoyment, or prosperity:
To rejoice triumphantly; exult:
Look at a tree! Trees glorify God because they do! They bring attention to His handiwork and skill as the creator.
Go mow tour next door neighbours lawn without him knowing and don’t tell any one.
Do everything you can to practically Love God and all people.
I can’t break it down more than that. But 1 Corinthians 13 does.
The style is unimportant.
There is so much more!
corey
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my answer is millions of things, the while bible is full of stuff to do to make God Himself, Famous (kina crap word but you get what I mean)
Ble bla bla Corey keep it simple.
Matthew
22:35And one of them, an expert in the law, asked a question to test Him:
22:36"Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?"
22:37He said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
God is incomprehensible, so bright it would kill us to look at Him, everywhere, Big, the most powerful force in the known and unknown history of all time and space Right!
Gods most number one focus is to see Himself loved above all, served above all, considered above all and basically the most important thing in all experience.
And its humanities (and natures) job to draw attention to Him, make noise about Him, reflect Him in relationships inside the church community and out and anything that will show the world his greatness (literally).
Dude I Believe that……. Man this is hard to answer because it has soo many answers.
The fact that I sin glorifies God.
The fact that I eat glorifies God.
So this is what I know! Doing all the stuff your talking about and every thing else a human can possibly do with our hands, feet, brains, mouth etc IN GODS STRENGTH passing on the acclaim for every thing that happens to Him Makes people think and act and say.
“GOD is amazing”
6:54 pm
Pedro said “For me the moral of the story is that most styles and definitions of "church" are appropriate in a specific time and place but not in others (there's a time and season for everything).”
I don’t agree with this because the definition of church is one thing and the style is another.
Definition is biblical. Ac 20:28 - "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. (I know this is out of comtext but it ts an illustration of the fact that the church is people)
Sounds to me like they are talking about people.
To be in the church is not an option because when you get “saved” (hope were not gona debate that word) you’re in it you are already a part of it because its Gods people if you are with God you are with us the Church.
The second issue “style”
What day, what time, music, length, no music, bla bla bla is only style, not doctrinal.
My friend Dave is here Dave said this “style should be coincidental and a result of the people that are gathered together.”
this is all iv ever found in the bible that talks about what we should do together and its not realy even talking about style.read this
More later
Mega love to yaz
corey
11:13 pm
Corey,
I think that my reply to your objection is related to your response to Nathan.
Your perspective that we glorify God in all things is one that I hold as well. This glorification (even through acts and states of being which we may not connect with "church" - regardless of definition - such as nature) is tied to the fundamental theological doctrine of general revelation. God created all things and called them good. All things, even man, retains an aspect of this original goodness, even though all things are also tainted by sin. This is why "what can be known about God has been apparent from the beginning" (a paraphrase of Paul).
The sin that taints all, that causes creation to groan in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed (which I interpret as the eventual glorification of a redeemed creation, a glorified church, and a finally fully-vested Kingdom of God on earth)is what has caused God to seek his children and bestow his grace on us. My dispensationalism-influenced paradigm leads me to believe that in this redemption of his children, God has both met his children where they are (in their unique historical, cultural, psychological, linguistic, etc. context) and has called and led them to transcend that context as a redeemed people. For instance, Abraham, a pastoral bedouin, was told by God to leave his home and country and journey to an unknown land. God did not tell Abraham "believe that someday I will send my Son to die on a cross for your sins so that you will live eternally with me." Abraham probably had absolutely no concept of afterlife beyond existence after death as being in a shadowy, grave-like netherworld. What did God's grace mean to him? "I will make you the patriarch of an immense tribe. You will be remembered and honored as the father of a great people." And God honored Abraham because he had faith and followed God, not because he decided in a moment of time to accept Christ as his savior. Abraham faithfully obeyed God's calling, and God fulfilled his promise.
God's grace was similarly manifested in different ways throughout the Old Testament as his people began a several thousand year journey of worship, from the simple nomadic expressions of worship to the immensely complex system of temple worship, all of which was fashioned by God, even as it was corrupted by man. Remember, God never castigated Israel for their Temple ritual or Temple worship (after all, it was God himself who instituted this system of worship); he chastised them for twisting this worship into into pure ritual devoid of devotion, a lach of which was evident in their hypocritical lifestyles. They neither loved mercy, nor acted justly, nor walked humbly with their God. During each time period, though, God met his people in a way in which they would be able to understand Him, but he also took them to a place beyond their human understanding by calling them to be different from the nations, by calling them so serve and love him alone.
My belief is that this historical evolution of human understanding and modality of worship has continued since the advent of the church, after the resurrection of Christ. This is why even the church has undergone so many shifts and changes in the past two millennia. I believe that God still meets us from within our worldview but that his grace then radically transforms this worldview.
Thus I, as a 21st century white American evangelical Christian, have been encountered by God where I am at, but God calls me to live a life that transcends this initial context and to follow Christ radically amid a hostile culture, whether that culture is sacred or secular. We cannot escape the fact that even within a tradition of faith a gammut of perspectives, presuppositions, and even complete paradigms will be present.
I would like to encourage you to examine your presuppositions. I am not saying that what you believe or the perspective that you have is wrong, but not everyone approaches scripture and fundamental theological tenants in the same way you do.
Although the definition of church is biblically evident to you, believers throughout history have interpreted this definition differently resulting in a variety of worship structures from, the Orthodox Church, to the Catholic Church, to the Reformed Church, to the multiplicity of non-Western Churches. For some, the liturgical rite and ritual draw them closest to God, and for others a mor informal, intnse worship experience do so.
Similarly, although we share a common root understanding of salvation, even the mode of salvation (e.g., moment of crisis vs. gradually dawning understanding of God's grace) is debated among truly believeing Christians.
What I am saying is not, in fact, that either of us is right or wrong, but that neither of us may be completely right. And because of this, I keep coming back to the grace of God in being able to love and perfect us, even if we do sometimes get it wrong.
2:51 am
p.s. I definitely agree with you (and I hope it is evident in my lengthy reply above) that style is incidental to worship.
2:53 am
Let us remember there are two types who get burnt by the church. Those who experience legalism and those who have their own self centred agenda that does not find fruition.
I used to throw my arms around anyone with a sob story about their past church experience. Now i listen but don't take what i hear for granted. At least not without hearing all sides of a story.
If you have been to a number of churches and find that the same problems keep surfacing it may be time for some introspection.
Could be your just a self centred prick living in denial.
Think about it.
Cheers.
Phil
4:20 am
pedro
dude-"Although the definition of church is biblically evident to you, believers throughout history have interpreted this definition differently resulting in a variety of worship structures from, the Orthodox Church, to the Catholic Church, to the Reformed Church, to the multiplicity of non-Western Churches. For some, the liturgical rite and ritual draw them closest to God, and for others a more informal, intense worship experience do so."
You’re talking about style again here not The Church.
Yes all the styles you mentioned have their root in the bible. But its still style!
corey
10:48 am
phill said
"Cheers.
Phil"
cool does that mean your gona go and have a beer and chill out!?
corey sleap
10:50 am
Corey,
I think that this conversation is starting to get lost in mixed definitions. I wish we could all sit down with a beer to chat in person.
11:44 am
true!
12:05 pm
I like beer!
1:46 pm
mmmmm, beeerr...
9:59 am
hey wat about this "beer church"
oh wait we alredy do that!
corey
12:28 pm
I love to see discussion about Christianity, I hope God leads you all to a deeper understanding of his love and grace. I will have to print this your comments off and really study what it is you are all trying to say.
One comment "glorifying God" is the answer in all things in my opinion, but you don't know what that is until you get to know the Saviour Jesus.
My suggestion is to focus on him and all will fall into place and everyone will love and consider others just like He did and still does.
12:05 pm
Sorry about the anonymous, did not mean to go that way, I am not too familiar with posting Marg is the name. I'll try again.
12:10 pm
My last post wasn't intended as a personal attack. I would advise my own brother to search himself and hopefully do the same too.
I don't remember reading anywhere in the bible where we are told to have a worship service each week.
We are to fellowship on a regular basis and that fellowship ought to be governed according to scripture.
I think the idea of disregarding this concept of the organised church is not of God.
I say this despite having had a gutful of hearing bad sermons. "worship leaders" speaking in high pitched voices as if they have a vice tightening on their nuts and other consistently bad stuff.
The first question we should ask is if the church is Gods chosen way of doing things. I believe that though problems ought to be addressed the answere is yes.
Yet i think many of the problems the church faces usually get back to departing from biblical principles.
For example the bible indicates the idea of spiritual gifts. Too bad if you have the gift of preaching or teaching as one guy probably has the pulpit hogged to himself. The sad fact is that even the greatest preachers are not that good that they can preach every Sunday, but they do.
Anyway about that beer, it has to be Corona or a Hahn, or i'm not chillin.
Cheers
9:53 pm
That probably didn't come out clear. What i meant was the bible does not ask us to hold a worship service full stop.
The real problem is that so much has been reinvented from a theologically correct perspective but not a biblical one.
Take baptism for instance. It is not an outward showing of an inward faith, the bible never says that.
Get church back to a biblical model and many of the problems can be resolved.
Or just stick your head in a bucket and say there is no such thing as a perfect church so don't join one if you find one blah blah blah.
Never commanded to hold a worship service, i think that is worth a thought.
Cheers
12:44 am
Chad, Becca James here. What good is all your faithful attendance, corporate worship and your loving tolerance of people who rub you up the wrong way if... you never ever ever make any attempt to even greet me let alone "encourage" or build me up as a believer in any way at any "social(outside of believers only activities structure)" gathering. Would you behave differently toward me if we met each other at a corporate worship service? Somehow I sincerly doubt it and that is in my mind the very epitome of what is really the problem between "us the church". If we can't get it right relationally we won't be any more sincere in a crowd. In contrast however I have a number of very real and sincere relationships with other believers, whose strength lies in what exists between us nurtured far outside of the local institution. These relationships have been divinely appointed and have served to challenge and change me as a person in a way that no lifetime of sundays ever have. One of which is the often outspoken, imperfect yet sincere lover of Christ DJP. Amazing really, that God thru His Holy Spirit (not a sunday service)would use a weak "individual" vessel to minister to me. He may have used you,Chad as well, but we could never even manage a hello so I guess not. However He has managed to prompt me to start talking to you now. Oddly enough thru the wonder that is the internet, that funnily enough, has had you connecting with Christians globally that you're never gonna "go" to "church" with.
10:42 pm
The idea that church means we will have an intimate relationship with everyone else there is a fantasy. No one has 200 close friends.
That does not mean people ought to be ignored of course.
You cite djp as having it right. If that is the same one who has posted here it would seem evident that the guy is completely self righteous and highly ignorant of scripture.
Beware of assuming that someone who tells you what you wish to hear is actually ministering to you.
I think it fair to assume however that someone for who words can roll so cheaply as this poster (djp) has would undoubtably tell you whatever it is you would want. Words are cheap.
The church may be imperfect however the question is, is it God's will for you? Yes it is.
So if you know this guy then talk to him about it in more appropriate circumstances, not on a blog.
Take my advice and though it may not feel like it but I will have had ministered to you far more than your supposedly humble mate who has on a public forum run down those (indirectly) whome he has fellowshiped with in the past. (very spiritual).
Easy to just do what we want though.
Cain did.
Cheers
4:26 pm
I'm adding a last comment here because 66 seems like a bad number. Let's not let things get really personal on here, guys. This is a chance to discuss the issue and not a good place to talk about people's relationships.
Peace
11:39 am
Huh?
what happened?
Did djp start going to church?
Peace all.
10:41 pm
I've thought about it and I'm sorry Chad. Of course no one is going to be friends with everyone. I'm so sorry that I had a dig at you. It was wrong and definately the wrong place to say something like that. I guess I felt defensive of real relationship as opposed to face in the crowd stuff. Truth is, I find it nice to be a face in a friendly crowd sometimes...especially after a week in the unfriendly world.
5:15 pm
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